That’s where I first started! People always hate on both the bear and cub course but I enjoy them. Nostalgia I guess
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I have a hard time hating on any AZ course with no real estate component. Though I understand that Bear Creek has fallen on really hard times and conditions have been abysmal the past few years.
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@OscarDeLaGorga
Also a Minnesotan here and we typically visit family in Encanterra 2-3x per year. Not all of the trips do I bring my clubs. The last time I did we played Encanterra for the first 18 then drove 20min to Johnson Ranch for the second 18 in San Tan Valley. Johnson was a super cheap twilight rate if I remember right and there was no one out there. We played the two courses at Gold Canyon (30-ish minute drive). Got a package deal with lunch included for both 18s in a day. Ocotillo was another one we did which was decent. Last we did Las Sendas in Mesa which was good too. The one I have top of my list for our first post-covid trip there is Poston Butte. Looks cool but know nothing about it, again about 20min drive.
Poston Butte is a pretty decent course. It’s in an Anthem community so relatively friendly but the golf is more interesting than what you’d generally think of when you think of “community course.” Has a very distinct look because all the holes are framed by crushed red rock. This also makes it much more friendly than most desert courses, because unless you’re unfortunate enough to end up in one of the small plants, you’ll find your ball pretty easily and have a recovery shot even if you’re wildly off line (extremely offline and you could be in a backyard but the corridors are pretty wide).
The green complexes are pretty interesting and I got the sense that if you played there a few times some of the holes that didn’t look like much at first would reveal themselves, especially in terms of playing differently depending on where the hole was located. Also, much like Maricopa (where Southern Dunes is) Florence tends to be really windy. I played there in a 2-3 club wind and no one around seemed to think it was anything unusual, so that gives every round a little something extra.
Last I knew the front nine still hadn’t had houses built on it yet, so it’s more pleasant and open, but then again it’s also more exposed to the wind. The back seems to have generally more interesting holes, I thought, but it is surrounded by homes. I remember liking a back-to-back set of par 4s at 14 and 15. When I played 14 was into the wind and at 430 was damn near unreachable. Then I turned around and played the 330 yard 15th with the wind behind and drove it in the front bunker (for reference I typically only hit driver 270). Arizona doesn’t really have a prevailing wind so how the wind changes those holes on any given day could be all kinds of interesting.
The sore thumb is, ironically, the signature hole. 17 is an island green. This is gross enough in the desert, entirely manufactured, at a course where there’s only one other water hazard (barely in play to the left of the 10th fairway). But on a course where a 2-3 club wind is not uncommon, it borders on architectural malpractice.
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Sold, just swapped it for SunRidge (which I’ve played before) to kick off the trip next week.
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Solid call. I enjoy SunRidge, but if you’re coming from out of state and have played it before, it’s not a must replay. There are probably 25-30 courses better than it in the valley.
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The only repeat this time now is Southern Dunes. Even though we stay in Scottsdale, I just love that course, we play it every time out. I’m also looking forward to seeing both Aguila and Talking Stick North for the first time.
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Good looking itinerary. Southern Dunes is worth repeat plays, for sure, even with the drive.
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Bear Creek is… fine. I play there quite a bit. I’ve seen it in better shape, but for the price it’s okay.
A decent course in the east valley is Western Skies at Warner/Val Vista. They’ve dropped a couple million dollars into it over the last few years and it’s generally in pretty good shape. Greens are always good, but their speed is highly dependent on time of year and time of day. New sand in all the bunkers is VERY fluffy and hard to hit out of after being used to the hard pan that most bunkers are out here. You won’t get in much trouble anywhere on the course and if you play the right side of most holes, you will almost never be out of a match.
Another course in the east valley that doesn’t get much pub is Red Mountain Ranch in north Mesa. Since Karsten closed down, it might be the only Pete Dye course in the area - others may know differently. It’s somewhat short (6800 from the tips), but every hole is a unique challenge, and given that’s it’s a Dye, you can expect lots of mounds, elevated greens and a fair share of railroad ties. It’s slope/ rating from the back tees (72.7/145) let’s you know it’s no joke.
It’s private, so I’m not sure if you can get on Seville or not, but it’s a lot of fun.
I haven’t played western skies in at least 2 years. Has it really gotten better?
I really think so. I moved out here 6 years ago and it was a complete goat track. Much improved since then. For ~$50 this time of year I’d say it’s one of the best deals around.
I’ll second Poston Buttes recommendation. It’s generally too long of a drive for me, but worth it once a year.
It’s a great walking course. There is a bit of a walk between 9/10 and 11/12, otherwise it’s pretty much green to tee.
I have enjoyed a few rounds at Red Mountain Ranch. There are definitely a number of holes where the real estate is too close for comfort, but that’s the biggest complaint (and hey it’s a reminder that you should probably be playing conservatively anyway).
Really liked the 5th, a par 5 where a big drive down the left makes the green reachable (but not necessarily advisable), the angled tee shot on 8, the narrowing fairway on 12, the greensite at 14 (the entire hole would be great but it’s hurt the most by homes encroaching on the tee shot), the 15th green and the terror of the sleepers around it, and the unusual Dye finish (16-18) which “looks” easy but can wreck your card anyway because you feel like you should be going for glory.
FWIW though, although the club calls itself a “Pete Dye signature” (Dye never used such a designation) the Dye family always referred to it as a “Perry Dye with Pete Dye” (or vice versa). Karsten (RIP) was the same. My impression from comments I’ve seen over the years from those who worked with the Dyes is that courses that have that kind of designation (whether Perry, PB or some other Dye) were really designed by Perry or PB with very little if any involvement from Pete. Pete’s name was added for marketing reasons (maybe they paid a little extra?).
Ancala CC is a Perry Dye design (no “with Pete”) credit, but you wouldn’t look at it and see any difference in design philosophy or anything from Karsten or Red Mountain Ranch.
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I didn’t know that about the Dye differentiation. Good to know.
#5 is an interesting hole. As a lefty, I usually end up trying to draw something around the corner to get down close to the green. Not sure I’ve ever been there in two. When the pin is in the front there is a great backstop you can play to bring the ball right back to the hole.
#9 is the closest thing to a sure birdie hole on the course. It tends to play downwind, and a good drive will make an eagle putt highly likely.
The back is very diverse. 11 is the best view on the course, and is the signature hole looking right at Red Mountain. But if you lose focus, it’s a tough par 3 that can put double in play quickly. 12-16 do not require driver, and hitting it is not worth the risk IMO. 17 always plays tough for me. If you come into the elevated green from the right, holding a ball on there is highly unlikely. There is a lot of trouble left but if you pull it off, the reward is a very straightforward look at the green. 18 is a pretty easy hole. 3w/wedge over the water and you’re home free.
I’d love to get out there with you some time. We should try to set it up.
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I’m not that low on Las Sendas, but I don’t like it. Prefer Longbow to either of them. Of that trio of courses (FTR never played Apache Wells or Alta Mesa and I’m not really interested in doing so), I’d probably split 10 rounds:
6 Longbow
3 Red Mountain
1 Las Sendas
I’ve just got to say that your memory of golf courses is truly remarkable. It seems like every course you’re able to give a detailed breakdown of multiple holes, if not all of them.
I’m a nerd, you can say it. 
well I want to be a nerd if that’s what it is.
FWIW I’ve kinda always had a very good spatial awareness and memory for places. If I go somewhere once I can remember how to get back there, or I visited a park once on vacation as a child but if I visit again 20 years later I remember it (not the day but like, where things are and how to get around). That kind of thing. My daughter seems to have this too, which is interesting to watch as she grows up.
I also started playing golf pretty young (the summer that I was 7) and I suppose it makes sense that I was interested then in how all the courses were different. I also played every other sport and of course even if the gyms or fields are different, every basketball court or soccer field, or baseball diamond is ultimately pretty much the same … deliberately so. Golf courses are so not like that and it sparked my imagination early on.
So I was interested with courses way before I knew anything about architecture or anything like that and had a mind that was, for whatever reason, particular good at remembering that specific kind of thing. Even now, I can very briefly look at an aerial or scorecard for a course I played once 25 years ago in Colorado and just a little bit of that info will jog so many memories of the course.
But, y’know, if I got to the store and need three things I damn well better make a list or I’m going to forget two of them.
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