Played it multiple times (at least 10 times for company and work events) and all I remember are 4 things.
Theyāve removed about 100 trees in the last year and a half. Makes it a little more dangerous and a lot more fun imo. Usually very well conditioned. 16 is the worst par 3 in the state. RT for 10 - horrendous hole. Just play to the middle and stripe a long iron.
this is news to me - good for them
https://www.instagram.com/p/Cuzj2vCrLwq/?igshid=Y2I2MzMwZWM3ZA==
Which course do we think will be hosting this disaster?
I wanted to comment on all the Twin Cities Golf posts about it, āRGC sucks!ā But I know KU would just sensor them so I didnāt bother.
Itās a little bunt course stuffed onto a piece of property built for 12 holes. Driver is almost unnecessary, but itās pretty open in most places, if you donāt mind playing from adjacent fairways. I lived off of hole 12 for a while, played it a TON. I agree a few stink more than others, but the bottom line is, itās not even a good muni, itās just a cheap muni.
Do they still have the ability to rent golf boards or the golf scooters at Oak Glen?
Scooters still available.
This used to be my āhomeā course when it was tier 1 PCC during the pandemic. Now I just frequent it a handful of times a year since itās about 5 minutes out the door. Can confirm that hole 10 pond consumes golf balls on the regular, aim it out right and take your par. You donāt need to even hit driver until hole 5.
@Billy_Baroo is long enough for driver on 2 as well. 5 can actually be a very fun hole with a bombing fade.
but everything Twin Cities golf endorses or touches is such high quality?
When golfers in the Twin Cities metro think of affordable public golf courses that they would want to play week in and week out, the course that comes to most of their minds is Keller. It is a historic Ramsey County course in the north east metro, renovated just a few years ago in 2014, and has become one of the most sought after tee times in the metro.
There is another public gem to the west of the metro, about 30 minutes from MPLS proper, called Pioneer Creek. Situated on the same rolling hills as its much more famous neighbor, Windsong Farm, this firm and fast public course has also become cult favorite of many.
Keller, with its location, top notch agronomy, and fantastic routing has garnered high praise from many in the community. Whenever someone asks where they should play a round that is both fun and enjoyable, most point to Keller. Iām here to argue that perhaps we should be recommending Pioneer Creek just as much as we are Keller. Iāll go category by category here, giving my thoughts on each of the courses as they compare to each other, and hopefully to drum up some discussion on this very important topic. Most of my thoughts here can be summarized by one sentence. If Pioneer Creek was slightly greener, and located 15 minutes closer to the metro, it would be recommended just as much, if not more, then Keller.
Let me start off with the most concret comparison I can make. Keller, at peak weekend times costs $51 to walk. Pioneer Creek at those same times, costs $52. Unless a youāre using that dollar to buy a Frosty on your way home, that is a wash when it comes to price. Let us move on.
This is easy. Keller is right in the Metro, Pioneer is quite a ways west. Keller is very easy to get to, Pioneer isnāt the easiest. Keller.
Probably the next most concret comparison we can make between the two courses are their walkability. Pioneer creek sits on a wild, stretching property, while Keller (not without its own land movement) sits on a much smaller property. The longest walk at Keller is from 11 green to 12 tee, in which there are 5 or 6 walks at Pioneer that are the same or longer then this walk. For that reason alone, Keller gets the leg up in how Walkable it is.
This is where subjectiveness comes in a little bit. Iām not going to lie, even though I have never been, I yearn for the firm and fast conditions of our friends across the pond. While I do love playing a lush, green golf course, I will always have more fun on a firm and fast test. Kellerās agronomy is top notch. Burnout is minimal, greens and fairways are always extremely green and true, and the rough is up enough to make it penial and difficult. That being said, it has a tendency to get soft, especially in the early months of the year. The fairways never have the roll that I enjoy, and the ground game is not usually a viable option. The condition of the course matches the routing and the style at Keller, just as it matched the style of play at Pioneer. Pioneer is on the complete opposite side of the spectrum. Sometimes it just gets way too hard. Greens become difficult to hold without a perfect shot, fairway runout becomes comical at points. The rough is inconsistent and burnt out, leading to easier, but more unpredictable lies. All that considered, I think Pioneer is closer to being the perfect course condition more then Keller is. If Pioneer had a larger budget for watering their rough and fairways, it would play nearly perfect. Again this is all extremely subjective, but Iām going to give the edge here to Pioneer.
Walking through the front 9 at Keller is one of the best experiences on a golf course. Each hole seems well placed and thought out, and there really isnāt a truly stinky hole on the front. Perhaps the worst is 7, where the green complex leaves a lot to be desired. But the way the course works around, up, and down the landforms gives you some downhill shots, uphill approaches, and differing challenges off of the tee. The same canāt be said about the back nine however. It starts well with 10, 11, and 12. 10 and 12 are quite similar to each other with the opportunity to get to a downhill speed slot in the right conditions. But when you reach 13, the fun stops abruptly. A uphill par 3 with a full forced carry and a small green is not the best recipe, followed by a forced layup par 4 where all the balls gather in the same spot, followed by a long, crazy false front having par 3 that makes it another forced carry make this easily the worst stretch on the course. 13 and 14 both seem extremely forced into their locations, as if they got to 16 holes and realized they needed 2 more. 16 and 17 are better, but the closing 18th as a straight away par 4 makes it a lack luster finish.
The same things I said about Kellerās front 9 could be said about Pioneerās. Each of the holes offer risk reward shots, and follow the land movement as well as any hole could. Take away Pioneers biggest weakness (its par 3s), and the front 9 is basically flawless. Pioneer struggles, much like Keller, a little in the back 9. 10 and 11 (where 11 is the worse hole) are back to back dogleg lefts. 11 has a blind tee shot, but with water left and right, itās never really worth it to take that blind shot on. Instead of traveling up the hill with a hole, you cart up it to take on a downhill par 4. The same happens (except with a downhill par 3 following) between 16 and 17. I think that just due to the lack of a truly stinky stretch of holes, and the use of the land in all directions, Pioneer takes out Keller on routing by a smidge.
No one wants this, its stupid. They are just numbers, but Iām going to go hole by hole and compare the 2 courses. Maybe one day Iāll change this and do tiers of holes, but for now this is what you get.
Drivable par 4 at Keller vs reachable par 5 at Pioneer. The edge here goes to Keller. Most tee balls at Pioneer will just trundle down to the bottom of the hill, and while the green at Pioneer allows for some fun shots to be played in, everyone playing from 200 makes it less enjoyable then the risk reward options at Kellerās first.
Battle of the Centerline Bunkers. Iām giving the edge here to Pioneer for the more interesting green complex, and the risk reward options off the tee. While at Keller, you can aim directly at the bunker and take it right or left, leaving a very similar shot from each, Pioneer forces you to think a little more. Do you play up the left, avoiding the left bunker and having a more level shot into the perched green, or do you avoid the trouble and play up the right, leaving a 15ft uphill shot into the green?
Par 5 at Keller vs Par 3 at Pioneer. While this is close, Iām giving the lead to Keller here. Kellerās 3rd is fantastic. Semi blind tee shot, bunker perfectly placed up the right. Layup short of the bunkers on the 2nd or go for the green and try to run it up to the green sloping away on the left. Good golf hole.
The tree vs a pretty neutral par 4. Keller wins, its sick.
Dogleg left vs right. Kellerās green is sick, but 5 at Pioneer is one of my favorites on the course. Bail right and leave yourself a very long shot in. Take on the bunker and hit the speed slot to have a short shot in. Go too far left, and your completely blocked out. Pioneer wins.
While 6 at Pioneer has one of my favorite greens on the course, the downhill par 3 at Keller is just really good. Can run it up on the right, or take on tucked pins on the left over the bunker. Keller.
Semi blind tee shot at Keller vs blind tee shot at Pioneer. Pioneerās green is really good, Iām going to give the edge there.
Stinky downhill par 3 to a really good par 4 at Keller. Keller wins.
Amazing par 5 vs good par 4. Pioneers par 5 really is a risk reward. Theyāve done some fairway work in front of the green left at Pioneer to give a true layup spot now. I like Pioneer here.
Grab a turn dog, you deserve it.
Kellerās 10 wins here. The green complex is the best on property, while Pioneer leaves a lot on the table with the flattest hole on the course.
I think 11 at Pioneer is my least favorite hole. Water left and right off the tee, fully blind. Green slopes way off the back and doesnāt leave a lot of opportunities to play into it in different ways. Keller has risk involved with the hill right, and a cool (but maybe a bit stinky) turtle green. Edge to Keller.
Drivable on the right day, the par 4 12th at Pioneer is sweet. But that doesnāt have anything on the 12th at Keller. One of the best holes on the course, it just wins. Great green, and itās one of the best moments in the round to crest the hill in the fairway. Keller.
Pioneer is a good, long par 3 with a huge green. Keller is a stinky uphill blind par 3 with a small green Pioneer.
14 at Pioneer is a great uphill all the way par 5 with some great bunkers in the fairway. 14 at Keller is a basically forced layup to a bottom of a hill to a cool green. Pioneer wins. Also shout out to the front contours on the green at Pioneer. You made my friendās brother really mad, which was sick.
Par 3 with massive false front <<< Par 4 with a blind tee shot. Pioneer.
Par 5 with a blind 2nd shot into a good green, vs a short par 4 with a dope ass green. Pioneer features a speed slot sloping left to right, with a bunker guarding the bottom. Then your 2nd shot goes into a 2 tiered green, and the bottom tier is a bowl. I think its one of the best holes on the property. Pioneer wins.
Downhill par 3 vs another tree hole. Iām truly scared of some of the takes of 17 at Keller, but I think itās kind of sick. Iām going to give it to Keller here just for doing something wildly different on this hole.
Flat par 4 ender, or a sweet, bombs away par 5 that goes way down the hill into an elevated green that has 2 huge tiers? Yes. Pioneer wins every day of the week here.
By my calculations, thats 9 to 9. Quite even. I think in broad strokes, Keller has much better par 3s, Pioneer has better par 4s, and they have pretty equal par 5s.
My goal here was not to say Pioneer is better then Keller. I donāt think Iām quite ready for that take (Iāll have to play them both a few more times). Iām just trying to argue that we should put them in the same sentence. I think in terms of how much fun a person will have, Pioneer edges Keller due to the firm conditions, contours, and land movement. The best part of this game is watching the ball roll on the ground, and you get a lot of that at Pioneer. Keller is better in terms contitioning, walkability, and location. I hope there is a lot to argue about this. I look forward to being shamed for this take, and I also look forward to being told why I am either really wrong, or dead on right.
Please be Stonebrookeā¦Please be Stonebrookeā¦Please be Stonebrooke
At lot to respect about this take. Only nits Iāll pick are that Keller has, in fact been plenty firm in recent years. Not quite as firm as Pioneer which can be comically so, but definitely not soft. I also didnāt read your hole by hole because your statement that āno one wants thisā is correct 
Maybe firm isnāt the right word, they just donāt adapt as well to the ground game. But yes Iāll give them that, they are a lot more firm these last 2 years then they were in years prior.
I havenāt played Keller during the main season for a while. Last year was April and November. So under normal conditions, can you easily putt through the fringe?
Braemar for insistence has had some shaggy collars making it easier for me just to chip from anywhere. Realizing Iām coming from a course where putter is the play from anywhere within 20 yds of the green.
You can putt from the fringe, but I wouldnāt say putter is the play from more then 5ish yards away at anytime at Keller, the fairways around the greens can get very very bumpy.
The tree fucks.
Windsong members can play Pioneer for freeā¦I wonder what percentage ever have.
I donāt think itās wrong to like Pioneer Creek more than Keller (I for one will never trash a Joel Goldstrand design and Iām on the record for maybe overrating Pioneer Creek) but I do think itās wrong to recommend Keller over Pioneer Creek to people coming in from out of town (unless they have already played Keller). - I think proximity to metro and the historic element of the course alone merit people playing it over Pioneer Creek
I totally agree. I donāt think I would sit here and tell someone coming in from out of town to drive out to Pioneer over playing Keller. But I think itās a worthy suggestion for people who have either played Keller before, or for us here (and have time) to make the journey out there more. I always kinda forget it exists, and every time I go out Iām reminded why I need to play there more.
At least 0 times but maybe 0.