Wait, sorry for being dumb here but how does changing the grass to make it faster change anything? Guys are still going to hit it up to the green every time.
1 Like
I think itâs a soft enough grass that they fly it to the green and know it will stop nearby.
Something faster would allow more shots to run onto the green or run way, way over if they miss.
Now neither happens.
@Forty has played it
Many times apparently
And he likes the hole
16 Likes
Iâm not usually one to slurp, or read articles this long.
But @KVV is a damn hero for this
2 Likes
Understatement of the Year.
10 Likes
Has anyone tried simply going straight at the hole and dunking it?
Clarification: I wrote this in regards to hole 4 but could probably work on hole 10 as well.
2 Likes
Has anyone consider rolling back the ball?
2 Likes
8 Likes
Perfect question for the Golf Talk thread!
4 Likes
Good call. Just posted over there.
In actuality though, I think hole four is dumb but Iâm still pretty in on hole ten. The drive is not interesting but I enjoy seeing pros trying to navigate that pitch shot. Loved it even more after Collinâs micâd up segment this afternoon.
1 Like
I posted this after reading KVVâs article but clearly put it in the wrong thread.
2 Likes
I have a lot to say so I apologize for the length of this post. I fully expect a âsorry that happened to youâ meme.
I think it is important to point a couple things out before I go into where I draw my opinions from.
- Yes, as @KVV 's article points out, the golf courseâs original design at construction did not have the bunkers next to the green, nor did it have the bunker short left that sits about 60-80 yards from the green.
Evidence (aerial of the course near the end of construction)âŚ
It is interesting to note that the original design also included a creek bed left of the green that continued on and ran down the entire length of the 11th hole until it met up with the barranca which would make 11 so sick if they restored it and removed all those eucalyptus.
(Quick side note⌠you can see an amazing bunker on 12 that no longer exists and see how 13 didnât have trees down the left at all and the barranca played right up into the fairway. I think if all these traits were restored you might have the best four hole stretch in golf)
But getting back to #10, it was at George Thomasâs direction that the bunkers were added a couple years after construction. Apparently, he felt the hole was unfinished. They were NOT put in by some greens committee or superintendent later down the road. They were added at the creatorâs decision.
-
In @KVV 's piece he quotes Rory talking about how they need to âregrass 30 yards up to the green so the ball runsâ. What if I told you that has already been done? From what I understand, Matt Morton (former Riviera Head Superintendent) did exactly that before he left a couple years ago. He put a special kikuyu down in the approach to the green that is the fastest/tightest known hybrid of kikuyu.
-
The PGA Tour has heavy input into how a course is setup and maintained for tournament play. The mow lines on #10 have eliminated the right side of the hole over time at the PGA Tourâs direction. The hole was intended to be played completely on short grass. If the right side had closely mown grass players would feel a lot more inclined to be even more aggressive if they knew they had the ability to control spin from a lie right of the green.
-
The green has had bunker splash build up over the years that has made the pitch of the green slightly more severe and is exacerbated by PGA Tour mandated green speeds ad firmness.
So does the hole stink? 100% fuck no.
What stinks is equipment that is outstripping classic golf courses. What stinks are maintenance practices that have made great work too roided out and not playing as they were intended. What stinks are listening to elite pros who want uniform, domelike golf conditions because they have lost sight of the inherent unfairness and randomness of the game. If you want a sterile, controlled environment, play sim golf.
My favorite quote from @KVV 's piece is from Sahith Theegala who continues to show me why he is my favorite player in golf. He âgets itââŚ
âI think there are a few different ways to look at the hole,â said Sahith Theegala, who made birdie on Saturday. âIs it a great hole? Yes, I think itâs one of the best short par 4s ever, if not the best. Is it a fair hole? I think no. I think youâre at the mercy of the golf course. The green is pitched a touch too much. But thatâs what makes it fun and diabolical. If it wasnât diabolical, no one would really talk about it. You can hit a perfect tee shot and get absolutely hosed.â
He is speaking the language of the good doctor, Alister MacKenzie who also âgot itââŚ
From Golf Architecure, by Alister MacKenzie
âMany poor golf courses are made in a futile attempt to eliminate the element of luck. You can no more eliminate luck in golf than in cricket, and in neither case is it possible to punish every bad shot (which implies⌠or reward every good shot). If you succeeded you would only make both games uninteresting.â
I think the bottom line is yes, the hole could use a reduction in the degree of slope on the green and be softened up a touch. But it doesnât stink and in fact is one of the greatest holes in golf but suffers at the hands of modern technology and PGA Tour tournament setup.
29 Likes
One of these years the Tour is just gonna declare it a par 3 on the scorecard because these guys will be hitting 3w for 325 carry. Then it will stink.
Two of my posts from the tournament thread. And @Forty nailed it!
I think Roryâs point regarding 10 is that because it is kikuyu all the way up to the edge of the green you cannot hit bump and run shots. And, since 10 has false edges on the front and left, no matter where you hit the ball you have to try and fly the second shot on to the green.
Pros generally suck at architectural discussions. Their focus is obviously very singular on shooting low scores. Almost by definition they canât think much about the quality of the architecture because it will mess up their mindset.
Based on on the pro comments above, one could say the problem isnât the architecture but the equipment. Also, the fact that the hole is 300 yards and they arenât averaging 3.4 on the hole makes them whine.
In 2021, the scoring average was 3.88. In 2018 it was 4.06. Iâm guessing the difference was due to rainfall and the softness of the course. Since 2013 it has averaged 3.92. So, it still plays under par.
Homa gets it. Just to repost the article that @golf4miami posted last year.
Rivieraâs short No. 10: The stats, the maps and the challenge
Short 10th at Riviera is long on challenge in the Genesis Invitational.
"Despite its challenges, the pros have figured out itâs better to take your chances with a blast toward the green or just left of it. Since the ShotLink era began in 2003, there have been 8,002 tee shots on No. 10 in the Genesis. Almost 59 percent of players have gone for the green off the tee in that span, and they are a combined 846 under par. The 41 percent of players who laid up are a combined 131 over par in that span.
âI used to think that there was an option to lay up. I mean, thereâs an option, sorry, but there isnât, you donât,â said 2021 Genesis Invitational champion Max Homa in the lead-up to this yearâs event. âItâs one of the most interesting holes, they talk about it all the time. Iâm still not sure if itâs the best hole in the world or the worst, but itâs my favorite, if that makes sense. âŚ
âItâs an interesting hole because, like I said, I love it. I love chaos in golf sometimes. I love you kind of hit it and you have to take what happens.â
In my opinion the worst part of the hole is the stupid little shrubbery left of the green amongst the palm trees. At the very least they need to remove the shrubbery. I think the best improvement would be to remove the palm trees as well and widen the fairway by 10 yards left and around the back of the green. Basically, that is widening the fairway to the target line of my driving cone. I could also see the softening the right side of the green just a touch.
Below is basically where I would tell Holmes to aim is tee shot with either a driver (thatâs what this cone is for) or a 3W depending on where the tee was and what carried the bunker.
They are not actually aiming to hit the green, which would kind of foolish really given the contours of the green.
Based on a visual from Why No. 10 at Riviera Is So Fun to Watch - The Fried Egg
I drew in the likely aim point of the pros based on the tee shot dispersion. Thatâs basically the cone I laid out.
Why No. 10 at Riviera Is So Fun to Watch
The ball doesnât roll much in pro golf, so approach angles rarely matter, but on the 10th hole at Riviera Country Club, positioning off the tee is critical
7 Likes
Another the reason the hole is still great is the extreme divergence of opinion on if the hole is great or not.
If all the pros thought the hole was great, itâs likely the hole actually stinks. See Harris Englishâs comments regarding the short par 4 at Hartford. That hole stinks. Everyone goes for it and there is very little penalty for doing so. Itâs just a long par 3.
If everyone in golf thinks the hole stinks then it most likely stinks.
J.J. Spaun in @KVVâs piece said, "There is no correct play.â There is a strong argument to be made thatâs actually the most ideal architecture - when players canât figure out at all what the correct play is.
14 Likes
Isnât this always true?
What play are we referring to? Didnt we establish going for left of green is the optimal play? Or looking at it from an existential view, we might say there is no correct play on any golf shot. This one seems to have the strongest correlation to there actually being a correct play.
Thanks!
1 Like
Philosophically, yes. But, Tour pros often think, and want, that if they hit a certain shot they will get a certain result. You can see that in the comments from some of the pros in KVVâs article. Tour pros do not like random bounces. Which means they will probably love whatever simulator/arena golf Tiger and Rory are getting guys to play in the winter. I patently refuse to watch that.
The correct pay off the tee is whatever club carries the left bunker with a target far enough left that your right miss is only as far right as the middle of the green. In my opinion, there is not debate about that. You are now using the slope of the green to help stop the ball. After that, the type of shot you should hit and if you should âlay upâ to an area of the green you know you can it is up in the air.
But, âthere is no correct playâ was not my statement, but the tour proâs. My point is the golf is more interesting when these guys donât know what to do. This was everything that Pete Dye tried to do when designing a course with Tour pros in mind. He tried to confuse them as much as possible.
4 Likes
I feel like homa and Saheeth are saying they like the chaos in this case.
I totally agree that most players like predictability. I donât know if they want to build a career around every shot being subject to unpredictable design but they at least currently like it on this one hole.
But they appear to be in the huge minority with this opinion.
2 Likes
Pro golfers want as many variables removed from the equation because it benefits them. They are not trustworthy.
We shouldnât be listening to pros about things like this, especially if itâs just one or two holes on a course that befuddle them.
15 Likes
Yeah Iâm basically scratch except for the inherent unfairness and randomness of the game.
When is the next us open qualifier?
6 Likes