This hurts. I haven’t been on a plane since March 13th. Sorry for the tangent. I reached a tipping point today. (Please no Gladwell in the bookclub, he hates golf)
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Crazy thing about Gladwell. I was given a book for my birthday called Upon Further Review: The Greatest What-Ifs in Sports History - basically, an alternate history of what would have happened if Bill Buckner hadn’t let the ball go through his legs, Scott Norwood wasn’t wide right, etc.
The foreword is by … Malcolm Gladwell, and the story he talks about? Tom Watson in the 2009 Open at Turnberry, where he almost won at age 58. I was stunned! The book was published in 2018, which is basically around the same time Gladwell posted his podcast about how golf in Los Angeles and elsewhere should be eliminated so he could have better running trails. (There may have been more thought in his argument, but that was essentially it.)
Kind of tells me that he’s pretty disingenuous in any of his takes. I was more disappointed to learn he DID appreciate golf, it made his stupid, stupid take about public/private golf courses even less worth listening to.
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Finished the book last night, and really enjoyed it. If you are interested, I thought that this article brought some great context to both the time frame of when the book was written as well as some thoughts from a present day perspective. Looking forward to the discussion!
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Hi all,
I managed to dig up some questions that ought to help lead some discussion on Wednesday.
I’ve hidden them below so as to avoid spoilers (click the arrow before “Summary” to read)
Summary
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Edith Wharton’s original title for The Age of Innocence was “Old New York.” Which title do you think is more fitting? Why?
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The novel is told entirely from Newland Archer’s point of view by an unnamed omniscient narrator. How does this shape the reader’s understanding of May Welland and Ellen Olenska?
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At the beginning of Chapter 6, Newland suddenly realizes that marriage is “not the safe anchorage he had been taught to think, but a voyage on uncharted seas.” What does he mean?
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Flowers are important symbols throughout The Age of Innocence. Discuss how Wharton uses them. For example, every morning during his engagement, Newland sends lilies-of-the-valley to May. Compare them to the bouquet of yellow roses that he sends to Ellen after he first visits her home. What do these flowers symbolize?
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Compare and contrast Newland to other men in old New York, as presented in the novel, particularly Julius Beaufort. How does Newland view himself compared to these men?
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It may be easy to forget that Ellen is not especially beautiful. Why are men like Newland and Julius so drawn to her?
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In contrast to her artistic European cousin, May Welland is an accomplished athlete. What does her skill in archery reveal about her character? How else does she differ from Ellen? In what ways are they similar?
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What is revealed about Ellen’s life in Europe? What is concealed? What kind of cruelty did Ellen endure as the wife of Count Olenski? What kind of cruelty does she experience in America?
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Throughout the novel, Wharton references a number of artistic works—the opera Faust, the Cesnola Antiquities at the Metropolitan Museum of Art, Chippendale furniture in the Lannings’ home, to name a few. How do such works relate to the story, and why does Wharton draw on them?
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Does the narrator of The Age of Innocence condemn 1870s New York society as it’s presented in the novel, or does she merely describe its hypocrisies? How would you describe the tone—sarcastic, ironic, mocking? Why?
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Newland’s relationship with Ellen leads him to see “how elementary his own principles had always been.” Which principles, in particular, does she challenge? In what ways?
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Playwright David Ives once stated that the novel is “an extraordinary portrait of the villainy of innocence.” What does he mean? Is there an innocent character in this novel? Is there a villain?
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Did the ending surprise you? Why or why not?
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Thanks, Sarah. Great recommendation. Here are some of my questions/thoughts
Summary
Does Newland love Ellen, the idea of Ellen, or just the idea of freedom? What do we really learn about Ellen’s, or Newland’s, character or their relationship that supports this love/longing?
I believe this was written right after WWI and read widely tin that context. How does that frame this book’s setting? How is it different/similar from reading it now?
The transition to the “modern” era and discussions of the newer generation at the end of the novel is a sudden ellipses. How did you feel about the neatly synchronized plot of Newland’s son Dallas and Fanny, and the direct comparison to Ellen? Poignant? Contrived plot device?
Who in the book was “innocent” and how so (e.g., May, Newland, Ellen, others)? What do you take from Dallas’ revelation to Newland at the end about May’s awareness, as well as Newland’s revelation at Ellen’s goodbye dinner at his realization that everyone believed them to be having an affair? How do you read the earlier part of the book in light of these confirmations?
These are really good questions!!
Summary
I thought the “modern” era chapter had a lot of importance in the framing of the rest of the story. Similarly, I thought an awful lot was being communicated in the little that was written about the daughter, Mary
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Thanks for hiding the spoilers! Should be able to finish and am really enjoying this read!
Still planning on Wednesday? Do we have a zoom time?
Yup! Typically 6pm PST/9pm EST seems to work
@Zocco usually sets up the zoom before hand.
Also - would recommend people bring any suggestions for next book. With things opening up and summer somewhat happening, I would think we would have a longer time in between get-togethers, but I’m definitely up for more reading/discussing.
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Spoiler Questions and Thoughts
- What is revealed about Ellen’s life in Europe? What is concealed? What kind of cruelty did Ellen endure as the wife of Count Olenski? What kind of cruelty does she experience in America?
This fascinated me. I am a pretty quick reader so I thought I’d missed it, but it’s really not discussed. Is that to leave it up to the reader or is it a function that any detailed information would have been considered inappropriate to put into text back 100 years ago? I assumed for awhile it was just the Count cheating on her brazenly, but then when compared to many of the New York socialites who openly did this, that can’t be it. Was it rape? Was it him having children out of wedlock? I’m less interested in what it was, though, but why it wasn’t discussed in detail.
I read something that stated that many considered May to be one of the great VILLAINS in literature. This befuddles me. I don’t see her as a villain, nor a victim. She didn’t trap Newland into staying married, if anything did it was society and the “correct” way to behave.
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I updated the thread title to reflect the ZOOM time.
Of course, the zoom link will be posted slightly ahead of the posted time for people to chill
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Summary
I have the same quick reading issue so could have missed something too. But my read was that it was blatantly cheating (perhaps cheating in New York was more discrete) with a secretary (class issues/embarrassment associated with that…). The Count was also described as “Brutish” on occasion which I suppose could be read for much more. I also got the sense there was some financial abuse (or at least carelessness) involved with Ellen coming into the marriage with family money and leaving with none. One analysis I read indicated that he had many affairs and possibly some with men, although I didn’t pick that up from reading.
I also wondered if we were supposed to read in some sort of cruelty of the indignity of divorce. At the time, a women’s worth was tied to her marriage (see the discussion around Archer’s sister) so perhaps losing that was some aspect of what Ellen faced.
To a modern reader, based on what was written (or at least how we read it!), I would have felt cruelty was too strong of a word…
This discussion of May as a villain would certain be an interesting one. I definitely didn’t read her as a villain. At most connivingly self-interested, but more a byproduct of her time.
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This isn’t really a spoiler question/topic. (And I forgot how to do the hide thing)
“age of innocence” dual meaning, is it about an epoch in history, or about the age of individuals, or possibly both?
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Shit–think I’m going to have to bail on tonight. Disappointed in myself. Love Edith Wharton (highly recommend House of Mirth and The Custom of the Country, which is my personal favorite), so thank you for the pick @Sarah and thoroughly enjoyed the reread. If you ever find yourself in the Berkshires (Lenox), Wharton’s home The Mount is worth a visit.
Will definitely grab the next title and lock-in the date once set.
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Just finished! A great book and I quickly perused the questions folks posted which are also great. I might be a little late as I have another Zoom meet but looking forward to it. Who is bringing the Roman punch tonight?
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I will be out for this one as I had assumed and feared. Shout out to all the solid recent posts to make me think about this read deeper. Especially huge @Sarah thanks for pushing my Pulitzer reading quest along through the early years.
Can’t wait to see what is decided upon next. Enjoy the discussion and hope you settle upon some structure for keeping this club alive in a more normalized world!
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The WWOG premiere is at 9 PM EST which creates a scheduling conflict. Would you guys like to move the book club zoom back one hour to 10 pm est?
- Keep it at 9 pm EST
- Move it back one hour to 10 pm EST
0 voters
Please speak up if 10pm is an issue for you. Not everyone on the east coast has 0 responsibilities like I do.
Either one works for me
CONFESSION ALERT: I’m only 2/3’s of the way done 
I was going to fake it and read the summaries because I want to join you all, but I’m really enjoying this book. The thought processes of Newland’s set just blow me away haha really enjoying looking back on times of my life where I’ve related to this struggle and how it still applies in ways today.
Will probably need the weekend to finish so I will bow out and will set myself on a better pace for our next book. I want to blame it on too much golf and zoom but I don’t regret either, this is my fault. Please forgive me 
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