Keith Mitchell Podcast

I think Keith’s point is being misunderstood. And maybe part of that falls on how @Soly presented it. I don’t think Keith is anti-rollback, my understanding is that he wants to regulate equipment instead of the ball. Simply making it harder to hit those massive drives, though not impossible.

On the point from @Soly and @Tron about PGA golf being an entertainment aspect. I think the distance debate boils down to what actually entertains us. And Soly references it all the time, decision making is what’s entertaining.

For example, when they discuss short par 4s. If everyone goes for it, it’s not a good hole and if everyone lays up, it’s not a good hole. It’s the decision of should or shouldn’t. And I think it’s the same for equipment. There needs to be a decision of should or shouldn’t when it comes to hitting a driver. And right now there is not. Everyone is bombing every chance they get.

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He actually made a very good point. Rolling the ball back does indeed change the distance players can hit the ball, but the bombers will still be the same bombers because their balls will still go further than the rest of the field. And, with the information available from trackman they can figure out ways to maximize distance and reduce spin as much as possible.

He, as mentioned above, was in favor of regulating the equipment for professionals combined with more difficult setups making it much more penalizing for a mishit when trying to bomb it, but still possible. This actually seems like a very sensible answer and solution. Also, he was correct the casual golf does want to see the bombs. There is a reason you see the bombs on social media more than anything else.

A 3800 SF condo poped up on my Instagram for $5,000,000 if you are interested.

I decided to “pass” on the opportunity.

I not sure what the causal fan wants to see, but I am pretty sure that the 95% of fans that watch on TV are not tuning in for the the same reasons as people on here.

I would be willing to bet the casual fan likes drivable Par 4s, but I doubt the casual fans cares at all about if 100% of the players go for it. Few care about the decision making behind it the risk. Just want to see the risk.

People on here prefer to debate the semantics of if the hole is good or not since everybody goes for it. Doubt that though ever crosses the mind of 95% of people that tune in.

I loathe the argument that the “common” golf fan cares about big drives so that’s what we need to lean into.

Bending the entire game, and the entire product, to the lowest common denominator will leave you with a bland, repetitive, shallow game and product that has no staying power. You may generate some clicks and impressions, but you will lack the loyal, long term, repeat customer because you don’t have anything else to offer.

The ultimate number is completely irrelevant, what people are impressed by is relative length. People we no less impressed by Greg Norman drives than they are Bryson drives.

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Surprised by this feedback.

I thought Keith’s point about the best players getting on Trackman and figuring out how to launch a ball that spins differently in one session was particularly interesting. His main argument is that Trackman has changed the game so much to the point that any technology you throw at them, they’re gonna be able to figure out much more easily than Davis Love could in the 80’s. I constantly hear “Trackman” as an argument as to why players are able to bomb it more these days, but the confidence he had in his ability to get with tour reps and a Trackman to make any technology work certainly made an impression on me.

I did not think his golf course arguments were good, and challenged him on those to the extent at which I thought it was appropriate.

If you look at the USGA mission statement, it’s very easy to conclude (along with a shit ton of other reasons), that the ball should not go as far as it does:

The USGA promotes and conserves the true spirit of the game of golf as embodied in its ancient and honorable traditions. It acts in the best interests of the game for the continued enjoyment of those who love and play it.

And this is the lens through which I have made my stance for several years now. The equipment is so good that, in a variety of ways, the spirit of the game of golf has been greatly diminished.

With this in mind, I think his argument about what fans want to see actually holds water. The USGA has so clearly dropped the ball on the equipment issue and let this go on for so long, that there’s vested business interest to stick with the status quo. The USGA has strayed from its mission of conserving the spirit of the game, and seems way more interested in the business of the modern game. If rolling the equipment back meant more viewers, it would have already been done. I’d love to be able to prove that more interesting golf means a more interesting product, better ratings, and more value in the game. But that would require people in the golf industry thinking past the next step right in front of them. And people in the golf industry do not do that.

I can make a million points as to why the ball should be rolled back and equipment toned down, etc. But if it doesn’t address the money question, the incentive to rock the boat plummets. Simply put, the wrong people are in charge of the USGA and have been for awhile.

I thought his points about different equipment not changing the strategy was interesting. Combining that with his confidence that they could figure out ways to get the spin off of a spinner ball, and I had to rethink a bit crux of my main argument about the risk/reward of pounding driver. And I thought this coming from a tour pro is interesting and different than a lot of previous discussions we’ve had on distance in the past.

Changing the technology in golf is going to be a pain in the ass. It’s divisive, it’s gonna be costly for equipment companies, and it’s a big question mark for the professional tours/USGA. There’s uncertainty. While I think it’s so incredibly obvious that something needs to change, I actually find the “why change?” argument to be one of the best arguments for the status quo. In my mind, there’s no actual logic that shows that golf should be played the way it is played (and the way it has been trending, and continues to trend). But I have a lot harder time answering the “why change” question when he says “we’re gonna figure out the technology, the same guys are gonna be at the top, we might be hitting slightly different clubs into the green, you might think differently, but you’re a small subset of the golf fandom at large, and 95% of golf doesn’t put as much thought into this as you do.”

THAT is a way, way, way better view on the debate than anyone that tries to twist numbers or tries to argue that the ball doesn’t go too far, in my opinion.

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I’ll grant you it’s a different, maybe better argument than the brandel view, but it still lacks depth of understanding and comes from the very narrow perspective of a professional.

For every time the “why change” rebuttal comes up, it’s a pretty basic response of sustainability and cost. And if you want to throw it in there, the current distance arms race has led to declining participation for the last 20 some odd years. The “do nothing” argument needs to have some more substance behind it. If the same players are going to be at the top, that could be an argument for change because it’s making the case that an equipment regulation is less disruptive.

I absolutely acknowledge that trackman and annoying twerps like scott fawcett will figure out the best way to hit the ball or play the game given new equipment, but that doesn’t mean that new equipment regulations will be ineffective. We don’t have to make this super complicated, change the CT limits, reduce the max MOI, and adjust your initial velocity test for the ball, or dimple count or whatever.

If it’s no big deal to adjust to those changes using trackman and big data as KM alludes to, then players shouldn’t complain? The only disruption I can really see happening is to the mfgs, but even then I don’t really buy it. They have an R&D budget to advance tech within the current regulation landscape already, it’s just redirected to R&D for the new parameters.

The “common golf fan” that has no real appreciation or understanding of the range of skills, depth of strategy, nuance, etc in the game of golf and is only impressed by distance isn’t a new phenomena. Those same golf fans existed in the 50s when Ben Hogan was “crushing it” 260yds, or in the 80s when Greg Norman was the best driver of the ball of all time. It’s not like the unwashed masses were sitting on the sidelines saying “until they hit it 320 yards I don’t care.” It’s relative distance they are impressed by.

I certainly appreciate your continued willingness to engage people on the issue, and I recognize it’s FAR easier to respond to anti-change positions from the luxury of my keyboard where I have time to sit and think through things.

I just don’t find his arguments compelling.

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I think we can agree that the golf ball goes too far. But my question is why does it go too far?

Golf ball tech has changed in the last 20 years, but nothing that compares to the revolution of solid core balls in the late 90s/early 00s. The biggest changes in the last 20 years have been with equipment. Which then leads to the ball going too far. IMO.

In other words, don’t blame the ball for equipment’s problem.

However, if USGA is set on changing the ball, I’m all in on making it spin more. If nothing else, make it harder to hit those bombs down the fairway. I’d sit in front of my TV all day to watch Bryson hit some snap hooks!

Put a different way, I thought his arguments for why it hasn’t changed were solid and interesting. It certainly didn’t change my mind on the topic but it explained the current situation within reason.

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Hard pass here too haha. At those prices maybe someone has an apartment above their garage that they rent out in return for yard work and chores.

Just need to expand your search to St Simons Island from Sea Island.

Anything on Sea Island is absurd and tied into the resort.

St Simons is still expensive in a live near the beach way, but not outrageous. If Mitchell lives 3 minutes from the airport then he isn’t living on Sea Island, but on St Simons Island. Sea Island is 10-15 minutes from the airport.

I’d ask you to define the “spirit of the game,” then, as I see it as whatever’s in rule 1 and a little beyond that, namely: acting with integrity, showing consideration for others, taking care of the course.

I think you’re adding your own “flavor” to that “spirit” and extending it a bit too far. I think the spirit of the game is alive and well, and if your definition is different than the USGA’s, then they could be performing their mission quite well… you just want them to have a different mission.

You’d do well to include the R&A in there too (regardless of your opinions here, pro, con, neutral, whatever…). The USGA doesn’t hold all the power. It’s a true partnership. A jointly operating pair of agencies. The USGA isn’t making these decisions all by themselves.

Everyone who thinks making a driver spin at 4000 RPM or something will magically “fix” things, please go here and play around with it: FlightScope Trajectory Optimizer . Also, remember what Keith said: they’d work around a higher spinning ball in a few afternoons.

so I did. A 170mph ball speed and 4000 RPM launch gets you around 274-277yds regardless of LA between 8-16deg. Change that to 2000rpm and you instantly jump to 298yds.

a potential change in equipment regulation is not limited to just spin rates either.

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I think one of the points that Mitchell hints at with his Trackman discussion but doesn’t expressly mention is that Trackman will ultimately homogenize the game regardless of equipment. You can roll back the ball in hopes of rewarding different styles of play, but now with Trackman it is easy to optimize your style of play to be compatible to the limits of the equipment.

One of the reasons for the roll back is so various styles of play can compete together, but it seems like with Trackman over time players will adjust and the styles of play will coverage around what Trackman says it the best way to optimize versus the past when guys just had to figure it out, which lead to a more varied attack to the same set of problems.

Nobody said it was. And per the second point, they could work around that in short order.

Trackman, FlightScope, GCQuad, etc. aren’t going anywhere. Regardless of the distance the ball travels, the knowledge there about how to score, how to optimize, how to drive the ball, etc. will remain. If your argument is that the game will be homogenized, that would still be the case with a rolled back ball too.

they can work around tighter CT limits or ball speed limits? how so?

what am I missing regarding the flightscope data? seems like more spin reduces distance.

My argument is that regardless of rule change the game will become homogenized around the best way to play the legal equipment due to Trackman, etc…but one of the reason that people want to roll back is to make it less homogenized around one skill set.

I don’t think that is possible in the long-run.

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Did you listen to the podcast, or read the second bullet point above?

This isn’t the distance debate topic, so… I’m gonna tap out here shortly. After this, hopefully:

I don’t think it’s homogenized around one skill set right now. You’ve still got to do the other things well. Long drive guys aren’t winning PGA Tour events.

please come pick another fight with me so you can tap out.

You replied to me.